January Artist Talk: Chris Williams

Maggie Hayes Hello. This is the first installment of my monthly artist talk series. And I'm delighted to have Chris Williams here today. And we're just going to have a lil chat and he's super smart. And so I'm sure he will be offering a lot of incredible wisdom that you'll want to take notes for. 

Chris Williams Oh man, that's a lot of pressure. That's so much fuckin pressure. 

MH So, gather your pens and paper. 

CW No, no pens and paper necessary, I'm drinking wine. yo...

MH Yeah, we're just chillin, we're just chillin. So the last time I have Chris, it was like, "oh let's just go, let's just go hang out for a minute and have a round.". 

CW Oh wow, yeah we were out for a long time. 

MH And before I knew we were setting the bar down, just talkin shit until whatever, 3:00 in the morning. So yeah. 

CW Seriously. 

MH We're going to cap it at about an hour... 

CW Hopefully. 

MH Even though it would stay interesting for the whole night. Yeah. So my first question is, what does it feel like to be funny?

CW Oh wow. It's weird. funny, it's one of the things where I feel like it's a quality you know, you're not allowed to say that about yourself. 

MH You can't call yourself funny. 

CW Yeah. It feels arrogant to call yourself funny, even if it's true. Like, I feel like even if I was like Dave Chappelle or Katt Williams or something, it would feel weird to be like, "oh, I'm funny," because it's like, oh, it's one of them weird things that people don't typically own about themselves. Yeah, you know what I mean? 

MH I feel like Dave tho, he'll tell you he's a great comedian. But he won't say he's so funny. Yeah. But he'll say he's a great comedian. 

MH You know, what it is, cuz funny is one of the things that is like it immediately sets up like an expectation of, "oh, somebody's funny?" It's like, "make me laugh right now." It's really interesting. I think I've actually thought about that recently because I don't know, people call me funny but I very rarely call myself funny, right. 

MH Yes. Is the politically correct term to call yourself someone that has a sense of humor? if you're describing yourself, like do you have dating profiles?

CW like Tinder or nothing like? Nah, actually Tinder feels weird for me. It's a big tangent. I was on Tinder one time for like thirty minutes. And it just felt so weird. I didn't like swiping right, which is the rejection one. I just didn't like doing that because it just felt like... 

MH Awww! Y'all, he's a cancer. 

CW I don't know, it just felt really like shitty. Not to say that people that use Tinder are shitty or nothing like that..

MH You just don't like the feeling of rejecting people. 

CW Yeah, I didn't like that. Just based on their looks solely. I didn't like that shit. 

MH I was just thinking that in a bio or something, rather than being like "I'm hilarious", saying "I have a great sense of humor." that would be a little less controversial. 

CW That's so easy. But that's like people that are really religious but they say they're spiritual, it's like, no, you're religious, you go to church like every week. 

MH I feel like you have actually had some very entertaining takes on the newly spiritual. 

CW Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. 

MH How do you feel like that affects people's lives when they come to find spirituality for themselves? 

CW I feel like it's whenever they find like a new religion, like if they get saved, they started getting baptized, which is, you know, fucking great. you know, I'm happy for people. Yeah. But it's like they are one hundred thousand percent like gung ho God. You can't do shit if God is not involved. Like we can't go bowling if God's not there. We can't eat pizza if not like Palestinian pepperoni by Pontius Pilate. Everything has to have some type of biblical thing attached to it. and I'm like, I feel you on that, but that first seven months of somebody being saved is rough.

MH Is there a difference between somebody being saved more like in a religious sense versus someone that's getting into finding spirituality more ancestrally like finding their roots?

CW Nah, it's the same shit. It's the same, like, slightly condescending, "I'm better than you because I have this thing" vibe, but at least with the religious folks, they actually have a building you can go to. But with the spiritual people its always like.. 

MH The crystal store! 

CW Yeah, but that's just like in the fucking mall next to the Gap. I mean, I respect all religions, all the beliefs, but it's just like when people first discover, like Dr. Sebi and all that shit, it's like, bruh, I feel you, but he didn't cure Aids. It's the same thing to me is the same like just gung ho hella 

MH getting into the dogmatic...

CW Yeah. Very zealous. That same energy. 

MH So Chris performs at least every two weeks with his show Hot Takes (at Front Porch Improv, with co-host Matt Nickley). How did you get into doing improv. 

CW Oh well I grew up here in Savannah. 

MH C-port! 

CW Yes, Like I used to watch "Whose line is it anyway?" On ABC when I was a kid because we didn't have cable. You don't have cable. There's like this four or five shows to watch. So I always liked improv, fast forward into adulthood, I moved away from here for a while and when I came back, I didn't really have any friends left here except for like one or two. So I was just looking for like shit to do. So I was on Facebook events and I saw it was like an improv like show and I thought, OK, cool, I'll go to that. And I kept on saying I would go and I never went, yeah. You know, like the third or fourth time I was like, "no, I have to go." So I went and they asked for an audience volunteer and I raised my hand. And after that, they were like, hey, you're really cool, you can hang out with us. And then the rest turned into, yeah..

instagram @frontporchimprov

MH OK and so is Front Porch (@frontporchimprov ) the only troop that you've been performing with. Yeah. Was it another troop before that? 

CW Now, that's all I've ever done was with Front Porch. Yeah. I have no theater background. 

MH Yeah. But you have a musical background. 

CW Yeah. I've been rapping and writing for like years. I guess. I started rapping in like '09. But I always written stuff, whether, you know, short stories or poems and shit, so yeah. 

MH Yeah. So yeah. Very cool. Are you currently more in trying to create music or just enjoying having this connection with performance through improv and being able to do that so often or both? Kind of enjoying both? 

CW You know, it's weird. I would say in a way I'm kind of like neither, if that makes sense...Even though I am a member of a super regularly and I'm like not writing music that regularly, but I still do it. I just feel like right now, like I'm in a space where I'm just trying to, like, set myself up to where I can do all my artistic passions to like the fullest. Like, yeah, I live like a starving artist lifestyle where, like, you just do nothing but art but then you have literally no money. Yeah. So right now I'm like in a very I guess opposite of that, trying to set myself up to where I have a space like this, to where I could just spend the majority of my free time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean so even though I'm doing shit, like it's not the forefront of my thought process right now. I guess I'm like thinking about a lot of stuff. The stuff I'm thinking about is more like a personal journey type of shit. Yeah. Going through of the effects of a lot of the causes I've planted in the past. With my relationships shifting with people and that's taken the forefront. You know, art has kind of taken the back burner.

MH ooh! Personal journey. 

CW Yeah, that's kind of where I feel like I'm at. 

MH So I feel like for me, it's been similar to some extent that I'll have seasons where things rotate around, like the importance or the priorities, rotate around a little bit. So I feel like there's some times where I'll have a season where I'm super focused on like my physical health and conditioning and getting like in the best shape I can and spending a lot of energy with that. And then other times where I hardly... I don't want to say I don't do any of that, because I always keep a little bit of movement in the program. But I'll be so focused on art that almost everything else just gets pushed to the side. Then other times where it is more like, all right, time to get digging into this psychological stuff and spiritual stuff and make that a priority. You say, I definitely relate and just kind of be like it's still part of you for sure, but it's just not the main focus at the moment. 

CW Yeah, that's exactly how I am, really. I don't I never have a period of time where I'm hitting on all cylinders. 

MH It's hard to do! 

CW But it's like your sun sign is libra, and my rising is libra. that was really interesting to me, like I'm always going through feast or famine with every aspect of my life. I'm either one hundred percent committed to working out or I'm not doing shit. Or I'm a 100% committed to whatever. I think that's OK. Like with music. I learned that, like, I'll go six months without writing shit, listening to a beat. And then in two weeks I'll write like 15 songs and then I'm just good with doing it like that. I definitely treat music, I feel like a visual art. In the sense of like how painters just have like paintings around. You might even having a whole stash in their attic that they never show anybody. That's me with music, it's less of a utility based thing for other people. And it's more just like, oh, these are just pieces that I created. Sounds pretentious, but that's just how I feel about it. 

MH I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me that it's something that's so expressive from just the basic standpoint of who you are. And it's not necessarily being formulated into some big project at the moment, but it's always just part of the flow.

CW Yeah, and I feel like music. I just become this utility based thing in our society. What I mean by that is like music is the only art form that we judge by its use in application to a practical purpose. With paintings, we can just appreciate them for like the expression that the artist has made with a movie is the same way that other visual forms of art, the same way with music. It's like, OK, can I dance to it? Can I write to it? Can I smoke to it? Can I fuck to it? If I can't do any of these things to it. Then it's shitty, so useless. And it's like no,it's a form of art. Like it's the artist's expression, but it's the ultimate commodified activity based form of art to the point where a lot of people can't make it the way that they should be able to make it, because their first instinct is like I'm wasting my time because this is not going to make a dollar, or this won't be a utility based thing or it's useless. Yeah, it's like not to ramble, but I'm like super passionate about this. 

MH No, I've never thought about like this, this is really expansive. 

CW It's like Lupe dropped this song earlier this year called House. And he had this song called Dinosaurs and it's essentially just a song about fucking dinosaurs and they're like... 

MH About *fucking* dinosaurs? 

CW No, no, no, no. It's just about dinosaurs like you just talking about, like different dinosaurs. And there's no, like, real deeper message. I mean, in the end, there's a little part where he's like, you know, they were here at one point and then they were gone, something could happen to us the same way. But the song was about dinosaurs. Yeah. But like, he got so much critique and flack. And I'm like, bruh, for me...

MH He wasn't hitting the socio-political pulse of the moment?

CW Yea, like it has no utility because people aren't going to do anything with a song about dinosaurs. But I'm like, bruh, just appreciate a song about dinosaurs. I feel like somewhere along the way music lost its artistic expression, you know what I mean. 

MH Yeah! So, OK, I have a couple of questions because I've always been a little bit jealous of music because it can be spread so easily and widely. And Instagram has changed the visual nature of how artists share for sure, like social media has changed how we view art because so many people use these as ways to show their art. So you can see I mean, I find new artists all the time that there's no way I would have found them. I can't imagine any other realm where I would have found this artist, except finding them through Instagram. Yeah. So that's changed a little bit. But in a broader sense, like people that can go on, explore and connect with all these different people and share their music and then all these other different people can download music and all these other different people can, you know, connect with in all these different ways. So I've been low-key, like a little jealous that that's how music is shared. But there's drawbacks because it is commodification. 

CW Yeah, I never thought about there being a jealousy from the other side, but I can see that too. Yeah. But yes, you said that it made me think what that's like the the battle between sound and sight. Yeah, that's kind of the natural...Yeah, I was saying that's like the sound and sight, because I'm with visual art, unless it's huge, like a billboard, you can't see it from a distance. Yeah. Music we're like any kind of sonic art, you can hear from across the street, so you know what I mean. It's just probably always been that way, you know. 

MH I know you're not necessarily performing all the time with music, but how this affects the music industry so profoundly, like how would you imagine you'd adapt to this kind of climate with not being able to perform? 

CW Man, I would be scared if I was one of them big artists like... You living like a millionaire lifestyle and like it's OK because you got money that's coming in, all of a sudden you don't have the millions coming in and it's like, oh, my mortgage is like five hundred thousand dollars a month. And I yeah, you know what I mean. Like, you know, you want to be like, holy shit, this needs to *snaps*. 

MH Yeah, like som'n needs to pop. 

CW Yeah. You know, some of these cats, somebody like Drake probably living like an extravagant lifestyle, but it's OK because for the last 10 years, he's had that coming in. Nobody expected a pandemic that made everybody sit down for a year. And it's like, yo, my bills are literally five figures. So, yeah, it's like yeah, I don't know how I would approach that. I would be panicing. 

MH I feel like that panic is like at every level of policy class, but at every level of income. I feel like that panic kind of exists for a lot because even if you're highly leveraged as a low income earner, that panic is there. But like you're saying the same thing, if you're highly leveraged, even earning a lot, you can still be like, oh, where's this next month coming from? The numbers are totally different. But the panic is the same. Yeah, because you're still having that kind of like the floor dropping out of what you're used to being able to take in. 

CW Yeah. And it's so weird because it's like obviously somebody at that socioeconomic level is much more well off than somebody at our level or below. But on the flip side it's like people like that got so much to lose. Like if we or you were out of a job, it's tough, right? Yeah. But it's also like I'm not risking foreclosure on my mansion either. And, you know. Yeah. Which is, you know, a huge first world problem.

MH There is like a story in Buddhism where someone comes up... I'm paraphrasing the hell out of this story. But someone comes up to Buddha and like his few followers and he's like, "have you seen any cows? I've lost my cows." And they hadn't, they just said, oh, no, I'm sorry, whatever. But he says "how fortunate we are that we don't have any cows to lose." And I was like, that is one way to put it. Yeah. We don't have any mansions to lose. 

CW That does sound like Buddha. Yeah, yeah. I've heard of that story before. 

MH We don't have the potential loss of mansions, we just have the potential loss of, you know, whatever the shit we do got.

CW Yeah. On the flipside of that it's like, wow, if I only have like a crumb and I lose that, it's like fuck, that's all I had. That crumb was a loaf to me. 

MH That that loss of crumb will break down even the most strongest people I feel too. 

CW Yeah, I agree. That shit's tough. 

MH Well, yeah so tell us tell us about your day job. 

CW OK, uh, I'm a courier. I just deliver office supplies like mainly copy paper and furniture to all these businesses in Savannah. And it is interesting because you meet people of all socio economic levels. You meet people that are very poor but they're running home businesses out of the worst neighborhoods in Savannah. That you would be surprised to see people just try and, you know, I guess you wouldn't be surprised, because they're trying to make way. But then on the flip side, you've got people that are tremendously wealthy, that have huge hidden mansions and forests that you don't even, you know, on the highway, you think, oh, that's a forest. But I know that's actually a neighborhood where rich people live, you know? So you see this big socio-economic gap. Yeah. And I also have to notice, uh, just a lot of the tenets of classism, you know, to be how people treat you. I never knew that a delivery driver was like a low class job to people until I did the job and saw how some people would treat me. Yeah, people treat me like I'm an idiot. Which, it's really interesting, it's infuriating, because I'm very smart. But like, some people will talk to you like you're five years old and I'm like, bruh, I'm just a delivery person, why is this coded as a low class job in people's eyes like why is this? To me it feels like, oh, this is a failure job, and I'm like how do you come to that conclusion? 

MH Right. Cuz, you're like, "what? I'm fine. I'm straight.". 

CW Yeah, it's a decent job. Yeah, I know there are some people I know that make like hella money doing it. Nah, it's like this is a decent job, this is a decent living. So I don't know, I don't really get it.

MH It wasn't a long term thing, but I spent a little time delivering phonebooks. 

CW People still get phone books? 

MH It was the Yellow Pages. Oh, admittedly, this was a few years ago. But the Internet already existed. So it was definitely a lot like truck depots and places that maybe just like didn't even have computers in their little trailers and things. And it was a fascinating thing, the human interest piece with doing that was very interesting to me. As someone that's kind of observant to how people are or psychology or different things. And it's like I could tell some people has so few visitors that they were just like, hype, just to have somebody knocking on the door. It was a couple of places. There's like a truck depot or is basically a trailer and I'm bringing them YellowPages book. I don't know why they're getting it. I don't think they have signed up for it. It's just being distributed by the yellow pages advertising it. People come by showing up and they're like, "oh my God, thank you." Like they were over the moon that someone was walking in. And of course, I'm a pretty cheerful person. So I ended up feeling at first very resentful of doing that job because I was like, I did not have money. And this was not a well-paying job or anything or any kind of full time thing. It was just like here you wanna make ten cents per yellow pages drop off. I was like, if that makes my dad happy, sure. So I did it, but I ended up like having kind of a fun time with it because of the people that I would interact with. And I felt like I got to bring a little happiness to their to their day. 

CW You know, there's a couple of things that were interesting that you said me and my coworkers have a theory that some people do only order so they can have, like, some company. I mean, even if it's a brief interaction. Yeah. Especially in older people, it's like this might be the only interaction they have all day with another person, especially during a pandemic. I'm usually like I'm not a cheerful person at work because I'm always in my head about other shit. 

MH Yeah. And you've probably got a time crunch.

CW Yeah, I gotta go. But with those people. I always do try to be friendly with the converse with. and I've made some really good relationship with some older people like to the point where they'll bake me cookies and shit like that. So that's one thing that's cool, it's not the biggest percentage. But I also recognize that's part of my personality. Yeah, it's a job where you're alone all day. I'm naturally a moody person, so I'm always going to be thinking and deep in thought. Yeah, and I get really resentful when people interrupt my train of thought.  

MH Ok, So I'm exactly the same way. I feel like no one will even know but they'll interrupt my psychic thing that's happening. Not psychic, like reading somebody, but my mental intellectual processes. 

CW Oh yeah. 

MH This is I'll be in my own little space like sometimes walking her or something, and somene will be like, " Oh my God, your dog is so cute!" and I'm like...But see, the thought I was having was really juicy there actually. I need to go back to that thought. 

CW See, that's me all day. That's where I said, that's what made me realize the different facets of classism. This may a very pessimistic take, but for me it feels like people feel very entitled to both my physical labor and my thoughts and my time. Yeah, like I'm not entitled to want to have my own thoughts and moments to myself, according to some of these people in their behavior, it's very strange. I don't work for any of these people, but yeah. 

MH Yeah, you're delivering to them, you're not their employee. . 

CW Yeah, but all of them think that I'm like the most menial ground level worker in their corporation. I'm like, why is that dynamic established between us? I haven't agreed to this or signed up for this. 

MH You don't know me! 

CW Yeah! So, I get rude with people sometimes because of that, people just think it's because I have an attitude, but no. 

MH I'm trying to imagine you being rude.. 

CW If you see me at work, you'll see. Because it's not about me being a dick, it's just that I'm processing these thoughts really quickly. I'm like, OK, you're only interrupting me because you feel entitled to my time. You wouldn't interrupt the doctor. I do want to treat anybody with a suit this way. So like that, for me, it pisses me off. Yeah. Like when I get pissed off I can't hide it, so I'm not going to be fake and be like oh put a smile on. I'm like what the fuck... 

MH I feel like that's one of the things that I enjoy most about is you seem to wear your heart and emotions on your sleeve a little bit.

CW Yeah. A lot. Too much. *laughs*

MH I don't know. Is it too much? 

CW Yes, it's too much,it's definitely too much. Nah, but I appreciate you, I appreciate it. 

MH But it's so refreshing to just be with someone like that because to me that creates an energy of trustworthiness. That OK, like I would never be like trying to make you mad at me. But I feel like if for some reason I did something and made you upset, I would know.

CW Oh yeah, totally. 

MH I would know. And we would be able to like figure it out because you're very communicative and expressive. Like, to me that creates like such a safety dynamic because I'm like, if, you know, people resent you that you don't even know about, that creates the most toxic problems because somebody would be upset about something. I'm like, what? 

CW Thirty one year old me is like that. Yeah. It took me a long time to be more communicative because even though my emotions would always be very apparent, I wouldn't say anything because I don't want to. It's weird, because I don't give a fuck about rocking the boat with strangers like, oh I'll burn a bridge with a stranger real quick. You know, just very vindicated in it. 

MH *cancer sun*. 

CW But with somebody that I'm close to, that's like my worst fear. The conflict. Yeah. but I love conflict with strangers, I love that for whatever reason. 

MH It's really interesting. I feel like I, I don't know, I very rarely have any conflicts with strangers at all. 

CW I could see that. Yeah. 

MH Yeah. But I feel like the most minimal conflicts would be like in a service industry type way because I served coffee for mad long and like worked in bartending and making coffees and that curtness of just like shutting someone down because they want to put you in the wrong when you're not wrong or something... Like that's a whole different vibe than I usually carry for sure. If someone is trying to tell me something that I know to be incorrect. I will definitely not, like, placate them. 

CW Yeah...

MH But to me that feels mean. 

CW No, I got you. I feel like you're diplomatic. 

MH Yeah. I will tell them in a way that they don't, you know, feel shame leaving the experience. 

CW Yeah. I got it. But just knowing you, you remind me of my friend Lana. And honestly, maybe this is sexist, but a lot of women I know are just very diplomatic. Yeah. Like maybe the woman that I attract in my life are very diplomatic with how they engage in conflict. And I admire that. Oh, I wish I could have those social graces because I feel like I throw people for a loop because I'm a really good listener and I think I'm pretty kind-hearted. Yeah. But I'm also very uncompromising and very rigid when I feel like I'm right. And people don't like that. 

MH I like it because again, to me that creates like a trustworthiness. 

CW But we never got into an argument either tho, you know what I mean? 

MH But I feel like I love seeing people sides of things. Like even if don't agree with someone, which is like a good and bad side of the Libra, like being able to understand the other perspective. It's good and bad because I can see why, you know, someone did something fucked up and be like, well, this is why they did it. So then for me to then hold them accountable for that is hard because I'll understand where they're coming from. But on the other hand, like, as far as like the argument goes, I'll be like I could probably see somebody's point, even if I don't fully agree. 

CW It's weird. I feel like I'm selectively like that. Yeah. It's so strange because I can see both sides of things that are very like serious and dark and I can see where people are coming from and how they ended up in a certain way. Yeah. But then sometimes I'm like, you're not coming from nowhere. You just dumb. 

MH I know occasionally I will occasionally drop in on the comment section and I'm like, it ain't even worth the click clack of these thumbs because. They're not trying to see anything outside of their own, like imagined worldview or whatever, whatever...so I do feel like it is a skill to get discerning about who you tangle with because you can spend so much energy with something that is like an absolutely useless endeavor, like trying to argue with certain people. Because especially when you're talking about something that maybe like you've thought a lot about it and they haven't. It's like, Bro, you're not ever going to get to this conclusion unless you think about it a lot more. Hard to engage at certain levels of that. 

CW Discernment is something I constantly try to work on. I think going along with those type of situations, my intuition in discernment, um, I feel like I'm pretty good at keying in when somebody has a flawed fucked up perspective, but it's actually based in a real life experience that you had or series of experiences that have skewed and warped their perspective. Yeah. As opposed to someone having a flawed fucked up perspective because that's what they've been taught. Yeah, I've noticed I have empathy and sympathy for the people that just have life experience, experiences. As opposed to people that just haven't challenged their thoughts, you know what I mean. These are the people that I can understand. OK, you're a fucked up person, but I get why you're the way you are. I can talk to you and we can honestly be friends as long as you're not like a child molester or some crazy shit, you know. But like I can understand how you got to this point. Some other people, it's like you just never looked in the mirror. That's all it is, you know what I mean. And I have no patience for that people which is judgmental and fucked up. But, that's how I feel. 

MH I mean, I feel like the boundaries around our own energy have to be like that sometimes for our own health, like not even that you're going out of your way to find or ridicule or judge these people. But just like for the sake of your own well-being, it's better that you just don't bother with them too much. 

CW That's good advice. I usually fight like every battle.  

MH Every battle? See, so you're very I feel like you're very expressive on the Internet. I will talk on the Internet a lot too. But it's interesting how few people challenge me and it's really that I am surprised by that because sometimes I'm like, this is pretty controversial. 

CW People don't want to challenge you. Naw, you don't have a spirit that people want to challenge. 

MH I guess! I feel like in a way it's because people just accept me. They're kind of like, "Oh, maggie, just talking her shit." 

CW Yeah, maybe. 

MH But on the other hand, I don't know, it surprises me. But do you feel like people tend to challenge you about your ideas online? 

CW Some people, yes. But I recognize it's just a spirit. A person like me, I understand why people would challenge me. But on the flip side, a lot of people champion me too, so it balances out, so it doesn't bother me. 

MH Because people got your back. 

CW Yeah. That's the nature of a person like me. I wouldn't say I'm polarizing, but I like challenge and I also inspire admiration in people. You know what I mean.

MH You draw the line in the sand of people that is supporting ass play and the people that is not supporting ass play. Yeah,. 

CW Yeah, seriously! And no bullshit. I've been like that since I was a kid. There's something about me that just when I walk in, I know people make a decision whether they like me or hate me and the people, that immediately like me. They're usually like ride or die. Yeah, it's hard to get them to dislike me and I'm still learning how to appreciate that, you know, the things they see in me, I don't see. I'm learning to appreciate that. And the people that dislike me immediately, like they just really dislike me for no reason. But I've literally been that way since I was like four years old. But I just accept that some people are just like that. They just spark feelings in people that the people themselves may not understand.

MH Somehow showing a mirror of something. I'm one of the people that instantly liked Chris because I saw him in line at Foxy Loxy and I already felt like he was my friend, even though we didn't meet before. Yeah, but it would have been like our four year old selves. I would have just walked  up to start playing with whatever, you know, if you were building sandcastles, I would just have sat down and been like, "We're building sandcastles, cuz this is my friend. "

CW I mean, ultimately, I think it's some type of leadership quality that both of us have. Yeah. You are the type of person that people don't want to challenge because they don't want to really be on the bad side of, you know what I mean? 

MH And that's rare for someone to be on the bad side. 

CW Like people want your favor. 

MH They want my favor? *turns to camera* Y’all want my favor?

CW Yeah, I think so, and I don't think people even realize that about themselves.

MH They're not consciously doing that. 

CW Yeah, folks are like that. And plus, you're like a really good person. So it's substantiated by your character. 

MH Thank you. 

CW I mean, like it's not just based on some shallow, superficial bullshit. Like you have qualities that exude and shine out that people are like, "man, I want to be friends with that person because that's a cool person."

MH Aw! Thank you. Yeah, I've got very few outstanding beefs. So really. If you're seeing this, we're cool. If you can see this, we're cool. Yeah. Even if you are, you know, supporting very, different political mindset than me, I can still appreciate a lot of people. That's the funny that I'm very grateful for my parents because they've... I don't know, just with all four of us, like I have three siblings and myself, like we are all very unique people and our parents somehow, even if they don't always agree with our choices or even if they don't always like, understand or like what we're doing, there's somehow still been this sense of acceptance, like I'll say, especially for Mama Hayes. 

CW She's really nice. I met her. yeah. 

CW Yeah, she's so sweet. She's able to just kind of accept all of us for who we are, even though we're all very different and like we've all taken our little different paths. So I try to give that same spaciousness to people I worked with as well, because it's so helpful to have space to be who you are. That's something that when I'm trying to, like, be forceful with somebody, I have to remind myself like, "no, you can't force someone to choose the best thing for themselves." That's usually where I get hung up with like I want them to do the thing that I know would be good for them. Yeah. As if I know the best thing for everybody. That's, you know, my own delusion. But at some level, I go back to this Ram Dass quote, where he's like the best thing I can do for anyone is be spacious enough that if they want to be free around you, they can. So basically, the idea that you are not the judgmental person that prevents someone from living their truth, I was like, that's goals. Yeah, that's fuckin goals. I want to be the person that's like, you can be who you are, around me. That would be ideal. 

CW I think you already exude a lot of that. Yeah, you're very accepting. 

MH Thank you. So I would like to know what your vision of paradise is. 

CW Oh, OK. 

MH If you were to describe a a paradise that you could exist in or like a heaven or something. Utopia. Yeah. Any of those kind of things. Well if you go on down,. 

CW I know what my perfect day would look like. 

MH OK, yeah. Let's get into that. 

CW On my perfect day. I would wake up around like 8:45, 8:30. I'm buddhist, I would chant for like fifteen minutes. I would go for a run and maybe three or four mile run, come back, shower. Probably smoke. Write. Record some stuff... That will bring me like around noon. Then I would eat. Smoke again. Like watch like Star Trek or something. Yeah. Take a nap from like 1:30 to 3. Wake up, probably record some more. Write. Um, work out again at like 5 pm. yeah. Maybe hit some weights or something. I would love to get back in to weight-lifting, that'd be great. Around six, come back, chant again. Shower. Eat dinner. It's like eight pm right now. Probably go out with some friends like I love going to dinner and drinking with people, I love doing that and then like, yeah I guess from 830 til like 11 be at social activities, drinking, hanging out. Come home right around midnight, if I had a partner, have sex, smoke some more, and then go to sleep around 1:00. That would be the perfect life. 

MH Yeah, I love that. 

CW Yeah. that would be paradise for me. I don't need much else. 

MH Yeah. Isn't it amazing? When you're actually tuned in to what you want for yourself, it doesn't really reflect or have anything to do with anybody else. 

CW No. I don't know what my perfect life. Yeah. And my life was like that every day that would be awesome. 

MH Can you talk to me a little about Buddhism... 

CW OK, cool. Yeah, I'm not going to name names or whatever. Well, we've been talking about like on and off relationships for the last couple months. For a while I had like an on and off relationship with somebody and she introduced me to Buddhism because she had recently at the time, you know, taken it up and started practicing. Yeah. So she took me to this festival called Fifty Thousand Lions of Justice, it was this organized event across like multiple cities in America in 2018 with young Buddhists in different major metropolitan areas, all gathering at the same time. So I once I got there, and just saw all the energy, ours was at the Georgia World Congress Center in Atlanta and so like it was just filled with like, young people practicing buddhism, I was like, man this is really fucking cool. You know, when I came back from that I started like chanting, I started practicing and I'm far from, like, a perfect buddhist, I'm far from enlightenment. But it's something that really has helped me out because it just made me think more like these last two years and some change, with the practice of chanting twice a day and really going for the things I want in life, because that's what it's about. In the West, we have this idea of Eastern religions being this very docile, stoic, "I'm training for world peace" type of thing. That's not really what it is. Buddhism is a practice about finding your happiness on Earth while you're here and helping others find their own happiness too. So through that practice of like chanting twice a day and really focusing on the things that I want in life and the things I want to change about myself, it's been a process of making me realize, like, damn, I have these fucked up habits. I have good habits that I want to grow. I have these bad things I want to change. And I have these actions that I need to take in these causes that I've planted that have created effects both good and bad. So that's why I stick with it, because it's a religion. But it's also like I don't know if it is. There's no God, you know. Buddha isn't a deity. He was a person that reached enlightenment. Yeah. So there's no worshiping anything outside of yourself, which was kind of scary at first with growing up Christian. I was like, oh shit, I'm not dependent on this higher thing. Which is kind of scary. Like, oh shit. It's just me. But then also on good days, it's like, oh man it's just me and that's cool, you know what I mean. So yeah I really enjoy it. 

MH So yeah. I feel like you're touching on something that's like a huge really like a huge theme that we're currently in. It's like becoming self responsible. 

CW Yeah. 

MH Because if we are deferring to someone else for what we should be doing or or like this idea that someone knows better than us or someone's going to save us, we become sort of like disempowered in that space a lot of times. I won't say everyone does, but I think a lot of us, we are giving away our power, giving away our sense of making our own choices and being responsible for ourselves in a way that's like, in very simple terms. For example, I always thought of myself as being like a messy person. I grew up not having super strict rules about cleaning my room. 

CW So physically? 

MH Yeah. I mean, sometimes I'm every kind of messy but mostly physically messy, but I'll just have, like, art supplies around or our clothes laying around. And at some point years ago, not that I'm always clean since then, but I had the full awareness, of how much of a choice it was. It was like I'm creating my character every day. 

CW That's so real. 

MH So my messy character is being reinforced every day by the choice to leave my pants by the shower or whatever, instead of being like, "oh, I am a person that is making the choice not to put my clothes away." So it was like creating a little bit of space between my actions and my character so that I could be myself making a choice rather than I'm a messy self and I'm not making a choice. If that makes sense.

CW Yeah, totally.

MH That's like a simple example but it applies in so many ways. 

CW That's a beautiful example. Yeah, no, I get that. because if you accept that you're a messy person, it feels like well, I will never not be messy. No agency. 

MH Yeah, no agency. There is no self accountability because I'm like, this is just how I am. And it's really easy. Even as someone who has struggled with depression, having a little space on my feeling states, where I'm still myself and maybe I'm feeling down, but that doesn't have to become who I am and it just creates a little space. So then I can deal with things a little better. And I have still a sense of agency and can move things around without feeling like as stuck 

CW That's super real. You know, the hard part for me is like I can do that for like a day. Yeah. I'm like I can do it one day at a time. But when I start thinking about like, man, if I'm gonna keep living, I'm going to have a day after this. That's when I get so overwhelmed. I could be not messy for a day, but can I do it for a lifetime? You know..

MH So retraining habits?

CW Yes, that's my anxiety. Sometimes I just don't do shit because I'm like, I know I can't keep this up forever. Yeah. 

MH Oh yeah. That's really interesting. I feel like that stamina is like a process though, like with running. Like you kind of have to decide..is it one day or day one? Like do I start today and then there's day two and day three. Or do I kind of keep telling myself, "oh, one day I'll start doing this." It's easy, I think, to feel the weight of that long term commitment versus OK, well, I'm starting here and one day where I'm changing this habit is still one day. 

CW Yeah, true. Super good way to look at it. 

MH Because yeah, it's hard to be like I'm committed to doing this whole new thing for, you know, the rest of my life. 

CW You know, like I said earlier, I'm very feast or famine with everything. And very like black and white. It's really weird. Like, I'm very just hot and cold about a lot of things. It holds me back in a lot of areas of life honestly, because I'm just very much like I just have to *gestures* I'm either here or I'm there.

MH Where do you feel like it holds you back?

CW Most areas in life. I do somewhat of a decent job of hiding it, but I'm really just super 100 percent like just 100 or zero with most things. Yeah. Either I like somebody like this or I don't. Or I'm into this or I'm not. I'm gonna give my effort or I'm not into. I guess with running, it helps, because it allows me to go hard, you know what I mean? 

MH Yeah, I love having that space too, to really push yourself with something. 

CW Yeah. But it's tough. Like I don't know, I don't know if I have like borderline personality disorder, because I know that's a symptom of like people with that. 

MH The black and white thinking? 

CW Yeah. Yeah they're very hot and cold with everything, so I don't know. But it is really tough for me to like find balance in every aspect of life

MH You've got that libra rising though! 

CW Yeah. 

MH Not to get on some big astrology rant. But the funny thing about Libra, it's more that, that the desire is there to balance but it's not that the balance is just there with libras. 

CW Yeah. I have the desire for balance for real. 

MH My sister and I were having this interaction with someone where they found out I was Libra and there was a comment about, "oh, libras are really balanced." And my sister was like, "You're one of the least balanced people that I know." I'm like. Well, I desire balance. I don't always achieve it, but I desire balance. So it keeps me curious because I'm trying to find what would be balance. So I'm trying to understand but maybe super hot and super cold is a balance of its own. 

CW Maybe. I'm a water sun and then fire moon, so that's an interesting point. 

MH What is your moon, aries? 

CW Yeah. I mean, when you said that thing about you, you want balance, that's really interesting. I don't know if there's a quote about this or something, but there is this, I think, philosophy that the thing that you want the most, that's what defines your character as opposed to like what you have. You know, if you want to be kind hearted, maybe that means you are. You actually are. If that makes sense. Yeah. It's like people that want something make the conscious effort towards attaining it. Yeah. And I think that through that conscious effort... 

MH You can be transformed. 

CW Yeah. And you typically have actions that correlate into transforming you into the person you want to be. So like if you want to be generous, you typically, you know, give away a lot of shit because it's like I'm not a generous person, so let me give as much as I can. Yeah. And then to other people, it's like, "oh, that guy's really generous." They don't know your internal conflict. They don't know that you feel like you're stingy. Yeah. They just like that guy's was always giving out money. He's really generous. So it makes you wonder if everybody's kind of like that in a sense.

MH Is there a trait that you feel like you made conscious efforts towards? 

CW Yeah, I think there's a couple, I think I make a conscious effort toward, uh, I guess not being selfish because I feel that I'm a selfish person. I try to make a conscious effort towards that, I don't think I always succeed though.

MH I feel like the truly, truly, truly selfish have no concept that they're selfish. 

CW Interesting.

MH In a sense of like someone being very, very preoccupied. They don't even maybe take the time outside of themselves to recognize they're preoccupied with themselves. Like that. Very self focused, you know, like it just is.  

CW I'm pretty self focused. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think I'm the worst person either. 

MH It is hard to find that line of self care, self-fulfillment, like doing what you need to do to be on your path and enjoy your life and caring for those around you that you love or that you want to interact with. I find that is a hard line to draw. Like how much do I give myself and how much do I give the rest of everybody of my energy. Yeah, because there are some times where I feel like I have to be stingy with my energy in order to accomplish what I want to do. 

CW Oh hell yeah. 

MH Things don't just happen because. You know, like I love hanging out with friends and talking and everything, but like if I had coffee with everybody that wanted to have coffee, like I would never do any art. Not to be like, "I'm so popular." I was just like, there are certain things where I have to start claiming boundaries around my time. And even if in a lot of ways I want to do both, I have to find some space and some containment for my own energy and what I need for myself to just do my shit. 

CW Yeah, that's real. 

MH But then yeah, to not get so caught up and preoccupied with OK, this project, that project, this thing, that thing.. like have some socializing, let myself chill, let myself go, you know, hang out with some folks or have folks over. Because I love people and it is so nourishing for me to connect with friends, but I can get really social and I can get really hermit-like with my little projects and art making. 

CW I can totally dig that. 

MH Yeah. So anything coming up that we should tune in to? Come see you at Front Porch?

CW Yeah. I got shows every Friday and Saturday 8pm. I'm actually performing this Friday and next Friday as well. Oh yeah. 

MH Is it a double "Hot Takes" or it's a different show? 

CW Different show this friday, then Hot Takes next Friday. Yeah. Yeah. I just checked the schedule right before I came, like "oh shit I'm performing this week," lemme write that down. 

MH I'll link them in the description of this video because it's a really cool space if you're in Savannah. But they also have the shows being broadcast onto zoom. So even if you're not in Savannah, you can hop on the zoom and check em out. I go all the time now since I'm just hanging out. I just moved recently, but it was right around the corner from me pretty much. So a wonderful, cheap date night or solo night. And they're always really entertaining. The cast is great. And yeah, I would love to hear you perform music again soon, too. I was really like pretty blown away seeing, you just even at the Civvies show, just having known you and then there's like this whole other side of you to experience as a performer. So I feel like I would love for more people to get to enjoy that. 

CW Yeah, same. Whenever this pandemic ends. 

MH Nice. And maybe any favorite books you'd recommend or anything you recommend for people to check out for their own personal journey. 

CW Oh, I mean, books. I can talk about books all day. Yeah, we don't really have time for that. I guess the book that I've been putting people on the last year and a half is this book called "Half Gods" by Akil Kumarasamy. It's a collection of short stories cool about this Sri Lankan family that immigrated from Sri Lanka to America after the Sri Lankan civil war. And it's told over a period of like 80 or so years, maybe a 100, but it's told chronologically out of order. So the first story might be 1999 and then the  second story is like 1952 and the third one might be 2015. OK, but gradually as you read it, you start realizing, oh, these are all interconnected characters and it's beautiful. It's starting to win a bunch of awards and shit, I feel like it's going to get a lot of critical praise, it's a really fucking great book. 

MH All right. Well, thank you guys for tuning in and I'll have a blog post up kind of transcribing what we talked about. But yeah. Chris Williams! Yay! 

CW Thank you for having me. This was fun.